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Επιστροφή στο Forum : αρθρο για συμπληρωματα πρωτεινης



bb-fitness
28-01-10, 22:43
παιδια βρηκα αυτο το αρθρο τι γνωμη εχετε?

I forget where I read this, but I read that Whey Protein digests so rapidly that your body is dumbfounded and converts it to sugar out of confusion.
Has anyone heard this before?
What??!? Are you trying to say that taking in a very highly processed and refined food product that is absorbed so unnaturally fast by the body that negative consequences could be incurred??!? Inconceivable! Everyone knows that processed and refined foods don't have negative consequences.




I'm not anti-whey; I want to make that very clear at the outset. However, I'm not a huge fan of processed foods either. We need to stop thinking of whey powder as a supplement, and call it what it actually is, though: a highly processed and refined food.

It's a milk protein that's been separated from its other protein, defatted, heat treated, pressurized, filtered and/or given a chemical bath, devoid of nearly all of its original micronutrients, powderized, and combined with flavorings, sweeteners, and whoknowswhatelses. That's as processed a food as you can find.

Since it's the supplement industry, and the magazines that support the supplement industry, that have provided the bodybuilding community with the mindset that "quicker is better" with regard to protein absorption, then I'll use the supplement companies and the magazines, themselves, to counter their own argument (because I think it's funny - not because they're necessarily a good source of information. I also provide excerpts from a source that I do consider a source of good information.):


First up, Lee Labrada of Labrada Nutrition. The following excerpts are from an article titled,'You may be burning over half of your supplement dollars and losing precious muscle!.concerned? You should be'!

"Your body can only use so much of the amino acid "surge" that follows the ingestion of whey. Once your hod it uses the whey amino acids needs immediately, the unused portion is shuttled to the liver where it is converted to blood sugar by a process called gluconeogenesis.

As much as 58% of whey is unused...there goes over half of your protein supplement dollars!

There's more. Because you're getting a big shot of amino acids "up front," there maybe no amino acids left over to nourish your muscles and keep you in positive nitrogen balance in the hours lea ding up to your next meal! Whey protein only lasts about 90 minutes in your system.

Which means that after your muscles get their initial "fill" of amino acids, you could go catabolic in the hours that follow.

Catabolism, or muscle breakdown, may occur when there is an insufficient amino acid supply available.

There's little else that will cause muscle wasting faster than a lack of amino acids. It's like putting a match to dry wood! Poof...gone. All of your hard work in the gym is for nothing. What you need then, is a protein source that is broken down and absorbed slowly. This type of protein source should provide amino acids to your muscles for hours, so that your muscles don't starve in between meals!"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...21/ai_98542698

Obviously, he's trying to sell you on his product, and in fairness, he's talking about whey between meals - not post workout. Possibly, he'd consider the "match to dry wood" analogy for post workout if his company didn't have a post workout whey protein that it sells. I don't know.

Nonetheless, this is a pretty good representation of the "faster isn't necessarily better" side of the argument.


Better yet is from a review of a post workout product called 'Surge', a post workout product consisting of glucose, whey hydrolysate, and maltodextrin. (oh, it should be noted that this review of 'Surge' was posted on a website that the manufacturer owns. They assure us that it's not a bias review, so I'm sure we can take them at their word. Uh huh.)

"So far we've been using pure amino acids as the gold standard for increasing muscle protein synthesis due to the rapidity of absorption, but it's becoming increasingly evident that it may be a little too quick for our liking. Sure, consuming pure amino acids will give us the quickest increase in blood amino acids and therefore protein synthesis, but this is followed by an equally drastic decrease once the aminos are all taken up.

Unfortunately, this rapid decline in blood amino acids is so quick that it actually becomes a catabolic situation unless more amino acids are consumed to stop the decline (Borsheim et al., 2002). Now this is where whey hydrolysate really shines. It will give a rapid increase in blood amino acids similar to pure amino acids, but the decline isn't nearly as sharp so there's no worry about going into a catabolic state!"

The first paragraph pertains to pure amino acids, not whey. I'm including it because they are showing the correlation between a rapid rate of absorption of aminos and the decrease of aminos that follows. This is more of the "match to dry wood" stuff Labrada based his argument on.

In the second paragraph, they claim to have the best of both worlds with the whey hydrolysate because it gives a rapid increase in blood amino acid levels, but without going into a catabolic state. Ok, let's take them at their word that we're not in a catabolic state - that doesn't mean we're necessarily still in a protein synthesis state, though, right? Right. That's why they later suggest another serving of their product. More on that coming...

First, another excerpt from the article:

"Even though it used to be considered very high quality, whey isolate takes more than two full hours to elevate blood amino acid levels so that they reach desired levels (Dangin et al., 2002). Having an absorption time one third longer than hydrolysate, whey isolate will give a smaller peak in amino acid levels and reduced protein synthesis stimulation as shown in Figure 2. In other words, we can have a peak twice as high or one that lasts twice as long for a given quantity of protein ingestion, but we can't have it both ways."

Given what they already established about the ensuing decrease in blood aminos following a rapid absorption protein, I'm not so sure that taking a longer time to be absorbed is necessarily a bad thing, really. Remember, most studies that are relied on with regard to post workout nutrition don't apply to the real world. They have people (either trained or untrained - yes, it makes a difference) often train on an empty stomach so they can determine exactly the effects the post workout nutrition they're giving their subjects has. In the real world, we have pre workout meals; nutrients are already in our system, available, both during the workout and immediately afterwards. Because nutrients are already there, ready for uptake by our cells, the need to get protein in our systems as fast as possible could be overemphasized due to nature of the studies themselvese.

And it continues:

"My advice is to not waste cash on isolate, because whey concentrate is much cheaper and will suit your needs just as well if you're looking for inferior protein. As for whey isolate, consider the dogma destroyed."

First, this overlooks the potential of a blend of proteins. It's possible that well made whey isolate (read: not ion-exchanged, but preferably, Cross Flow Micro filtered), combined with a well made whey concentrate could be superior to a super-fast digesting whey protein, such as, hydrolysate. Unfortunately, whey concentrates can vary in quality (could be as low as 30% protein, or as high as 80% protein) and I haven't seen a manufacturer yet list the quality of the concentrate they use in their products. Hell, you're lucky if they differentiate between the ion-exchange whey or another, superior, type of isolate (ion-exchange whey isolate involves the use of hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide, etc., in its manufacture. Your 'Isoupure' supplements are pure ion-exchange, by the way. Have fun.)

To combat the problem of rapid digestion and subsequent decrease in blood aminos, I have seen three different solutions. First, the solution the manufacturers of 'Surge' would prefer you employ:

"For some reason, the concept of multiple post-workout meals has eluded most bodybuilding articles, even though it can double our much-lauded protein synthesis levels after our workouts!

The reason that we can do this with Surge lies again in how quickly the protein gets in and out of our bloodstream. It's been shown that consuming amino acids in two separate doses after a workout will give two distinct but equally high spikes in protein synthesis."
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459463

Yes, of course! Take twice the amount of their product! Pure marketing genius. Ha! "Take twice the amount of our product to only get half of the negative results, and twice the positive results!" Pure fucking genius, I tell you.

The other two solutions I've seen to combat the rapid digestion/decrease aminos problem (solutions conveniently not included in the 'Surge' review) are, first, sipping your post workout protein drink. Uh...isn't that just mimicking slow digestion? Instead of doing that, why not either: A)Take a slower digesting whey, or B)Combine the protein with something that slows digestion (e.g., another slower protein and/or fat. Yes, fat post workout. A decade from now when a new crop of bodybuilders are looking back at the previous generation - us - and they're laughing at us for taking in proteins that are more rapidly assimilated than the body can accommodate, you remember who, in 2007, made a video of a post workout meal containing whey protein blend and fat containing whole egg. Thanks.)

The protein blend solution was expounded on as a solution to the rapid digestions/decrease amino problem in the current issue of FLEX magazine (July 2008, p.84):

"FLEX now recommends that in addition to whey you also use soy and casein protein around workouts. Whey is fast digesting, which gets aminos to your muscles rapidly to stimulate growth. Soy is also rapidly digesting, like whey. Plus, research shows it enhances muscle recovery better than whey due to its antioxidant components and its ability to boost nitric oxide levels. Casein, on the other hand, is very slow digesting, which provides it the benefit of decreasing muscle breakdown. Today, we know that casein taken after workouts can boost protein synthesis, and research confirms that adding it to a post workout whey shake enhances muscle growth far beyond that capapble without the added casein."

I thought I should underline that last part. That's as close as you'll see as a paradigm shift in thinking from FLEX magazine. They've been telling you for years and years that whey should be consumed as the only protein in your post workout arsenal. Well, apparently, they were wrong.

It should also be noted that they aren't now changing their stance based on anything new. The studies they're basing this on are a couple of years old (The main study, from, Baylor University was from 2006.) There are only three reasons I can think of that they would wait to make a change in their recommendations 1)They didn't want to admit they were wrong. 2)They know they'll sell more magazines by telling people what they want to hear, rather than the truth. 3)The know they'll sell more advertising space by publishing information that the supplement companies want reported. Not a whole lot of whey plus casein products on the market, ya know. But FLEX let them have a couple of years to get ready. In the meantime, they've been lying to you.

They're missing the boat on the soy, in my opinion. Not because of some alleged feminizing side effects, but rather, because it's inferior to whey with regard to protein synthesis, and inferior to casein with regard to anti-catabolic properties.

I'm going to quote an article titled 'The Partial Vindication of Soy', by Will Brink (who knows his shit when it comes to protein, imo):

"...if a bodybuilder starts to replace too much of the other high quality proteins in their diet in favor of soy to reap some of the potential benefits of soy, than he (or she) runs the risk of losing muscle due to this lower quality protein...

Make no mistake about it, soy protein does not have the nitrogen retaining, anti catabolic, muscle building abilities of proteins such as whey, whole egg, red meat, etc. "

He does say that, although soy is inferior as a muscle building/anti muscle wasting protein, it does have its own potential benefits:

"it appears that a person does not need to eat a great deal of soy protein isolate to get the benefits. Estimates of ten - thirty grams a day of a high quality soy protein isolate should do the trick for most people."

So, take in a relatively small amount of soy for supposed health benefits, but there are superior alternatives for physique improvement.


(unrelated to the topic at hand of protein synthesis/digestion rates/protein mixtures/etc, I feel obligated to pass along this article about soy. Make up your own mind.)

In any event, the advocation of soy in the post workout formula is because dairy prices are sky rocketing, and soy is a cheaper alternative - not a better alternative. I have no doubt that protein powder manufacturers have had a drop in sales because of the rise in the price of protein powder. People are (eek!) likely turning to whole food sources of protein (what are you people thinking?!) So, on comes the onslaught of "pro soy" articles (current issue of 'MuscleMag' has one, by the way. They tell you all of the muscle building and anti-catabolic benefits of soy, without ever mentioning that it's less than what whey or casein will provide. Of course, they never mention that it's superior to whey or casein in any regard, either. They can't. Sometimes, what they don't tell you is more important than what they do tell you.)


Finally, getting back on track, I'll leave you with this excerpt from another Will Brink article, this one titled 'The Whey it Is', with regard to whey hydrolysates:

"Most people remember hydrolyzed proteins were all the rage a few years ago, then dropped off sharply. "Hydrolyzed" basically means the protein has been broken down partially into peptides of different lengths. Because the protein is already partially broken down, it is absorbed faster, which may have positive effects under certain circumstances, and certain metabolic conditions (i.e., burn victims or people with certain digestive disorders and pre-term infants). Whether or not hydrolyzed proteins are truly an advantage to athletes has yet to be proven.

The hype over hydrolyzed proteins was largely based on one rat study that found fasted rats given Hydrolyzed protein had higher nitrogen retention then rats fed whole protein. Human studies have shown that whey peptide-based diets in patients with cancer and crohn's disease result in enhanced nitrogen retention and utilization. To date, no one has followed up with a human study with healthy athletes showing the same thing."
http://www.brinkzone.com/articledeta...catid=3&aid=25

Not exactly an endorsement of the quick digesting whey, huh?


So, what we have here is a problem with fast digesting whey proteins causing a reduction of blood aminos, leading to the lack of protein synthesis (or, or even possibly, catabolism). The solutions offered are to either sip your whey (mimick slow digestion), take multiple servings (the supplement company's preference, of course), or consume a slower digesting type of whey and/or mix it with a slower digesting protein and/or fat.

My preference, if you care, is for the latter. I mix a whey protein blend with cottage cheese and/or milk, and sometimes even heavy cream post workout (and other times, as well). I haven't wasted away or gotten fat yet.

thegravijia
28-01-10, 22:45
kane mia metafrasi

Jud0ka
29-01-10, 01:18
+1 μια μεταφραση θα ηταν καλη>.<

Muscleboss
29-01-10, 03:43
Φίλε bb-fitness δεν έχει νόημα να βάζουμε copy paste ξενόγλωσσα άρθρα. Αν θές να βάλεις κάτι τέτοιο , να πάρεις τις απόψεις άλλων και να βοηθήσεις τα μέλη, καλά θα ήταν αν όχι μετφραση να κάνεις μια περίληψη με τα βασικά σημεία στα ελληνικά. Διαφορετικά δε νομίζω να πάρεις απαντήσεις και την εικόνα ου φόρουμ χαλάει...

ΜΒ